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345_CHLNGR

No Injector Pulse Width For +2011 In Diablo Dsdataviewer

I want to bring this to the attention of this Forum as Diablo already knows about this issue.

Injector Pulse Width can not be Data Logged on +2011 Dodge with Diablo DSDataviewer what so ever (The PID is there just no data). This brings major challenges for +2011 and newer Dodge owners when trying to tune your fuel mixtures spot on. Here is the bottom line, if you change injector sizes in these cars the tuners without OE Diagnostic Scan Tools have no way to monitor this data in a log. This makes it very difficult to try and tune these cars.

I started researching this issue on my own as getting solid answers to this question of mine is like pulling teeth. I am not sure if nobody really cares or maybe nobody really knows the answers.

I have checked many sources to see if Injector Pulse Width PID's were in Generic OBD2 Data and from what I can tell those PID's were never in Generic OBD2 Data which would make those PID's OEM Data. So here is my question... back prior to 2011 was Dodge just being nice and giving access to Injector Pulse Width Data or was it simply easily cracked and used?

I am attaching Injector Pulse Width Data from an aftermarket scan tool that does have some OEM Data in it. It even has issues with all the cylinders, number 5 & 6 are "Not Available".

Please someone chime in as to what the real issues are in getting this data in DSDataviewer.

Thanks
 

2013-10-132013-10-13001001.jpg

 

 

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They probably just need to add the pid. Not a big deal. I doubt its a conspiracy.

 

Not a huge loss imho unless you are trying to push power to the limit of your inj. I like to keep a little margin and tend to err on the larger size for injectors when there is any question about how big to go.

 

J

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For street drivability if you Log a Lean A/F Ratio between 2000-4000RPM wouldn't you want to dial your A/F Ratio's in?

 

I never said it was a conspiracy.

 

 

FuelInjector.png

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Nope. You just turn on the VE tables and tune it like you would any other 2003-2010 hemi.

 

Inj scaling is a characteristic of the inj, not the engine efficiency. It really shouldn't be used to adjust your adaptives. In the past you have had to use it on cars with the neural network because there wasnt any other way to Adjust it. That is not necessary any more since Diablo found out how to enable the ve surfaces.

 

J

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well most of them still run like shit... 

 

Not at all. You just have to be more careful about your mods. Plenty of mid to low 10 sec cars out there running very well. Believe it or not most run like crap not because of the lack of ve tuning rather its teh fact you cant turn off certian idle and gear shift nannys.

Thanks

A.J.

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Really?? So everyone with a VVT and mods has no tune since 2009??

AJ

 

 

well most of them still run like shit... 

 

 

 

I will change my statement from no tune to a bad tune. "If" a car requires VE table adjustments and the tuner has access to VE tables but didnt touch them, its a bad tune. The customer is experiencing a lean issue at part throttle from 2000-4000rpm. With o2 sensors monitoring a/f and adjusting fuel accordingly, the only way this will happen is if the VE tables are way off and cant adjust enough in order to bring the af back to stoich.

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Welcome to Dodge tuning lol

 

What do you mean by "lean from 2000 - 4000"?  Is that at part throttle or WOT?  If at part throttle are you seeing something leaner than 14ish AFR?

 

If part throttle, that really can't be manipulated all that much as the closed loop system will attempt to maintain a 14ish AFR.  If at WOT, then that can be adjusted by several means.  The lack of VE tables caused the tuning to be much more difficult so if that's been added that's a very good thing and may open up easier tuning on bigger cams and what not for the VVT engines.  Inj PW just lets the tuner know you're not at the limit of the injectors.  It's useful but as stated not critical.

 

Diablo are still working on opening up the newer PCMs I'm sure.  There are thousands of tables and, from my understanding, and they have to hack at each one to port it over to their CMR software.  Every time Dodge changes the computer, they have to start again.  Even CALID changes require a lot of work as well as tables can be moved around or changed.  I found that out when I had those throttle problems going with the Trinity and it updated my CALID.  It was like a whole new tune was required....what a nightmare.  Diablo blamed Dodge and I opened a CSR with Dodge and they said that the throttle lag was by design.  Made the car terrible to drive and I eventually just went back to the Predator and only use the Trinity to data log.

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If part throttle, that really can't be manipulated all that much as the closed loop system will attempt to maintain a 14ish AFR.  If at WOT, then that can be adjusted by several means.  The lack of VE tables caused the tuning to be much more difficult so if that's been added that's a very good thing and may open up easier tuning on bigger cams and what not for the VVT engines.  Inj PW just lets the tuner know you're not at the limit of the injectors.  It's useful but as stated not critical.

Yes it can. The pcm can only add/remove somewhere around 30% of fuel in order to maintain stoich. If the VE tables are off enough, the pcm with add the full 30% that its able to and if its not enough, the AF will be lean. Back when you couldnt adjust VE tables, tuners were playing with injector scaling in the CMR software in order to pull fuel at idle so the cars would drive better. 

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I think you're confusing what I'm saying.  There is a 30% range of adjustment both + and - in closed loop, that is correct.  However that range is used to maintain a 14s AFR (stoich as you put it).  You can't manipulate the AFR to say 12.0 or 11.8 or whatever at part throttle closed loop is the idea I was trying to communicate.  Also, if that 30% range is exceeded I believe a CEL will illuminate as well.  It did in my 4Runner when I was tuning it for part throttle boost and tried to manipulate that.

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Just to clarify.... The VVT cars have all been tuned with the use of only injector scaling and PE table adjustments in the past. This includes idle, part throttle and WOT. There simply was no other option. The injector pulsewidth information is critical to nailing this down quickly rather than guessing the injector PW to adjust the "closed loop" as well as the "open loop" fueling.

 

As far as enabling the VE tables in the VVT cars...I had one shop that had tried to tune a car on their own with the ANN disabled but did not have success. I was contacted and ended up tuning the car for them via the injector scaling method. I did contact Diablosport today concerning the ability to disable the ANN and "activate" the VE tables. They responded quickly stating this can be done. I am in the process of testing it now. Joel obviously has done this and I thank him for the heads up. If this actually works and the VE tables can be utilized like the older SRT VE tables this will be a big deal for the VVT folks. Like I mentioned, a shop I completed a tune for tried this several months ago however, rather than taking the time to try to fix what they had done I used the "tried and true" method of injector scaling and the tune went without a hitch.

 

I am anxious to see how this works!

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There is another PID that will show you the other side of the scale so you can see the MG/CHG and be able to plot where in the slope the injector is operating. I've been working on fixing this for sometime but it is not very cooperative.

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The 2011 and up pcm's are not sending the information to the PID. You need to be able to use DMR's to get it. I don't believe diablo supports DMR's for a Dodge

Hope this helps

AJ

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