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demonbydesign

Building 6.4 torque in a 6.1 possible?

:o, i will tonite, gotta get me a boobie one like the master GSO

 

 

I'll ask you all for your thoughts on the following.

 

First, how do I build into my 6.1 the same kind of low end, broad level torque pull that the new VVT 6.4 will bring to the table?

 

Second, what limitations and "nightmares" (as Josh put it to me once) does VVT pose? I don't understand the dynamics of it all. Someone at work told me that VVT is going to require lots of time spent on a dyno and engine builders willing to tear some of them up to "crack" the maximum out of them.

 

I still don't understand it totally. But am I wrong in that VVT keeps the rpms in the powerband better from shift to shift?

 

Why does the 6.1 have "flat" spots?

 

Remember in your answers to K.I.S.S. for me.

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Dang, your sig pics make it touchy for me to read this forum at work haha. Someone's gonna call HR on me.

 

VVT stands for Variable Valve Timing. The cam can actually move back and forth and the lobes are cut in such a way that the opening of the valves changes based on RPMs. You'll notice a bit if a boost in power above 3,000 RPMs and this is a result of the VVT doing it's thing. It's a very nice benefit to have.

 

The problem is that it makes cams a bit difficult to design for a VVT motor. Since they move around there is potential to get too aggressive in one of the lobes of the cam and cause piston to valve contact. Also, since the valves opening changes the amount of air and fuel coming in to the motor, it makes tuning more tricky.

 

It'd be pretty easy to get the same broad torque out of a 6.1. Drop a blower on there and be done.

 

I tried to find a video for ya, but the only one I found was from Toyota and it didn't really show the cam moving.

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Dang, your sig pics make it touchy for me to read this forum at work haha. Someone's gonna call HR on me.

 

VVT stands for Variable Valve Timing. The cam can actually move back and forth and the lobes are cut in such a way that the opening of the valves changes based on RPMs. You'll notice a bit if a boost in power above 3,000 RPMs and this is a result of the VVT doing it's thing. It's a very nice benefit to have.

 

The problem is that it makes cams a bit difficult to design for a VVT motor. Since they move around there is potential to get too aggressive in one of the lobes of the cam and cause piston to valve contact. Also, since the valves opening changes the amount of air and fuel coming in to the motor, it makes tuning more tricky.

 

It'd be pretty easy to get the same broad torque out of a 6.1. Drop a blower on there and be done.

 

I tried to find a video for ya, but the only one I found was from Toyota and it didn't really show the cam moving.

 

Sorry about the pics but this is not a NWS type of board is it. :o

 

Thanks Speedy for the understandable explanation.

 

It's funny you said "drop a blower on there and be done" this is what a guy at work said would be the easiest solution. But is it the least expensive in my case? All I'm trying to ask is whether or not (without a blow job) can I achieve the same type of low end torque as the 6.4? Furthermore, as far as racing goes my end game goal is to hit mid 11s N.A....unless it's more money than a blower then I'll consider one.

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I'm no expert, but it sounds like you need a cam setup for low end. I'm thinking 112 LSA but it will be at the expense of the top end.

 

There are experts here that know the right answer.

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I'm no expert, but it sounds like you need a cam setup for low end. I'm thinking 112 LSA but it will be at the expense of the top end.

 

There are experts here that know the right answer.

 

That was it! That's what Josh was talking about. Cam and springs or something like that, yes.

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Don't change that sig until my windshield's buffed!

 

the beauty of you having the 6.1 is you got options, dbd. You can go pretty aggressive on the cam and the tuning is available. You aren't ever going to have options like the LS guys as far as big cams, but you got a whole lot more than the 2009+ 5.7's with VVT. That is going to be a hell of a nut to crack, but I think they'll get there on the 2009+ 5.7's later this year based on a few things I heard. I'd bet second half of year vs 1st half, though. Then, they'll turn their attention to other stuff. First thing the new 392 will need is a tuner before they can be changing cams and such. We'll see how long that gem takes...

 

So the first thing I'd be thinking about is your timing/deadline, your budget (previously noted), and what you THINK you'll want in the end (my point here is we tend to move the end zone when modding...). If you're patient and don't mind holding your nads for a while, you might have more options but I'm thinking we are where we are for 6.1 cams/naturally aspirated options. If you need more power than you'll pick up with a good head/cam package, which deep down inside you probably know you will down the road, then go with the hummer/blower and be done.

 

If more of us thought with the end in mind, we'd save ourselves a hell of a lot of time and money. Just hard to do... Kinda like easing into a cold woman, err pool :o

 

HemiSam

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The great thing about the 6.1 is that there are several builders out there that have a good understanding of them and they can work with you and Comp to do a grind that will give you exactly (mostly) what you want. I don't they are even close to that point with the 09 5.7 but once they figure it out I think the 6.4 will come quickly behind it.

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Don't change that sig until my windshield's buffed!

 

the beauty of you having the 6.1 is you got options, dbd. You can go pretty aggressive on the cam and the tuning is available. You aren't ever going to have options like the LS guys as far as big cams, but you got a whole lot more than the 2009+ 5.7's with VVT. That is going to be a hell of a nut to crack, but I think they'll get there on the 2009+ 5.7's later this year based on a few things I heard. I'd bet second half of year vs 1st half, though. Then, they'll turn their attention to other stuff. First thing the new 392 will need is a tuner before they can be changing cams and such. We'll see how long that gem takes...

 

So the first thing I'd be thinking about is your timing/deadline, your budget (previously noted), and what you THINK you'll want in the end (my point here is we tend to move the end zone when modding...). If you're patient and don't mind holding your nads for a while, you might have more options but I'm thinking we are where we are for 6.1 cams/naturally aspirated options. If you need more power than you'll pick up with a good head/cam package, which deep down inside you probably know you will down the road, then go with the hummer/blower and be done.

 

If more of us thought with the end in mind, we'd save ourselves a hell of a lot of time and money. Just hard to do... Kinda like easing into a cold woman, err pool :o

 

HemiSam

 

Did you mention a pool man?

 

humor. forgive me.

 

 

Sam, my biggest issue is money. It's going to take all my restraint to save up enough to afford a simple TC/install for the springtime.

 

I like what I've heard about the 6.1 though as far as what it's obviously capable of, which for me for now is more than enough as I'll never need to see past mid 11s. (yeah yeah I know! lol)

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A head/cam package will get you there no doubt. The tricky part will be picking the right cam. Most big cams lose low end torque to gain it higher in the RPMs. It's a trade off. The reason the 6.4 can have both is due to the VVT I described earlier.

 

I saw Andy was running a special on heads/cam for like $2K or something. That's a good deal. Then you got the install/tune figure another grand there.

 

A Vortech blower would run you about $5500 and about $500 for the install, so your double the cost, but you'll have a bump in power down low that will really come alive above 2500 RPMs.

 

A Maggie blower will run you about $6500 but you'll have torque literally ALL the time.

 

It's all in what your budget can handle. Just make sure you get what you want up front cuz like Sam says you'll end up making tweaks and adjustments and going the wrong direction initially will cost you big bucks down the road to change.

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