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Teddyp

Torque Management And Esp

'13 Challenger 392 6 speed. I had the heads, cam, and LTs installed and tuned. It dynoed at 486/476. The tuner stated he turned off torque management. When I am in first and doing a 10 mph roll and floor it, it will not spin the tires, or it tries too then stops. If I hold down the ESP button for about 8 seconds, I get the chime and the ESP full off in the cluster. Then if I floor it from the same 10 mph roll it will spin them like an animal about 75% of the time. The other 25% it's as if I didn't press the button at all.

 

I'm confused and hope that I can get some clarification on what is going on.

 

1. If torque management is off from the tune, (if the tuner said it is, I'm sure t is), why do I need to turn off ESP every time I get in the car to harness all of its potential?

 

2. When I do turn the ESP off, why is it allowing the car to spin most times but not all the time?

 

Please note, I'm not out to spin my tires. I'm just using that as a gauge to see how much torque is reaching the ground.

 

The basis of this post comes from me using a friends car last year as a bench mark. We have lined up several times prior to my work being done. His, Camaro, 6.2? 6 speed. 2013 ish. He has cam, long tubes, dyno tune. We were pretty even with my car stock up to third gear then he'd start pulling. He should because of his work.

 

Now, I pull a little in first, second, third he gets even, then while in third he pulls past me and goes into fourth. I know I didn't get or pay for blower motor power. Also didn't expect tremendous gains. What I did expect was to pull, even just a little through out the gears on him, or at least keep even with him.

 

The basis of this long winded post, (sorry, the frustration has hit me), is NOT loosing a friendly race, but the fact that my torque management is supposedly off and I feel something is literally holding the car back from truly letting all its available power loose. Does anybody have an idea what's going on. I feel as if the car is like it was stock, with just a little feel of a difference. I've been driving the car for over three years and 13,700 miles and don't feel that much of a difference.

 

Thank you for taking the time to read.

 

 

Ted

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I can't speak to the tq mngmnt portion but this is much related to the auto being faster than the stick debate. Manual trans gear ratios designed for 1/4 mile performance always have their biggest RPM drop when going in to 2nd gear, in to third a little less and in to 4th the least. That is so as the aero resistance rises to being the biggest hurdle to continue acceleration the engine is spinning fast enough to pull through it. Cars  need adequate RPM/HP in order to pull from the bottom of a 1:1 ratio. Going in there at 41 to 4300 RPM is far from ideal.

 

Chrysler chose to do the exact opposite and exacerbated it with a very very short second gear. The only reason I can come up with was to make a willing sacrifice in 1/4 mile ET in trade to achieve the quickest 0-60 mph time possible. Indeed that goal is huge in the marketing world but is worthless on the strip. One simply can not expend all torque multiplication from trans gearing 100 feet before the 1/8 stripe, then nose over going in to 4th and not even finish close to red line. If one looks at trans gearing in the Camaro / CTSV and others that use tremecs today you will see they opted to string out the gears in the conventional way and come in to 4th at a higher ground speed which equates to RPM and power.

 

So yeah, we kick ass to 60mph and you can even stay with your buds Camaro thru 3.....then say good bye once you go in to 4th. I used to do the same with my SRT stick vs my buds 5.7 auto....it's far less stick vs auto than it is average power application over 1320' due to gearing.  

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ESP and torque management are not the same thing.

Explain, teach me why they are not the same. Also why does my car feel not so peppy as it should?

 

 

Ted

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Doesn't your SRT have performance pages? Are you in track mode?

I have a 2013. I don't think they call it performance pages on my year model. I'm a stick. I have off and sport. From what I understand sport firms up the shocks and I think steering maybe?? On the autos it does like the manuals and also holds gears I believe.

 

 

Ted

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I can't speak to the tq mngmnt portion but this is much related to the auto being faster than the stick debate. Manual trans gear ratios designed for 1/4 mile performance always have their biggest RPM drop when going in to 2nd gear, in to third a little less and in to 4th the least. That is so as the aero resistance rises to being the biggest hurdle to continue acceleration the engine is spinning fast enough to pull through it. Cars need adequate RPM/HP in order to pull from the bottom of a 1:1 ratio. Going in there at 41 to 4300 RPM is far from ideal.

 

Chrysler chose to do the exact opposite and exacerbated it with a very very short second gear. The only reason I can come up with was to make a willing sacrifice in 1/4 mile ET in trade to achieve the quickest 0-60 mph time possible. Indeed that goal is huge in the marketing world but is worthless on the strip. One simply can not expend all torque multiplication from trans gearing 100 feet before the 1/8 stripe, then nose over going in to 4th and not even finish close to red line. If one looks at trans gearing in the Camaro / CTSV and others that use tremecs today you will see they opted to string out the gears in the conventional way and come in to 4th at a higher ground speed which equates to RPM and power.

 

So yeah, we kick ass to 60mph and you can even stay with your buds Camaro thru 3.....then say good bye once you go in to 4th. I used to do the same with my SRT stick vs my buds 5.7 auto....it's far less stick vs auto than it is average power application over 1320' due to gearing.

Very good explanation on the gearing. Yes, it makes sense. However, mine and my buds gearing didn't change form last year. I know the tranny and final drive gears are very crucial, but my car still feels like it's being held back, literally, like a brake is on.

 

 

Ted

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Would a Tranzformer or a "no esp" help a stick car?

I'm not sure, I thought the Tranzformer was just a line lock. I'd have to research it.

 

 

Ted

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I have a 14 RT 6 speed and did a no esp switch plus use the tazer burnout box (linelock only). IMO a very good combo especially while the car is inder warranty. After some more miles I may swich to a hard lined linelock but for now if I have to bring it to dealer I dont want the brakes re-plumbed. At the track I flip the no esp switch off for the day then use the cruise cancel button for burnouts. As a side note if your going to use the burnout box, you pretty much have to hardwire a no esp switch. Reason being when you hit and hold the dash switch to turn off esp, then hit the burnoutbox and do your burnout, the traction control resets to full on. Then before you stage you have to stop and press n hold the esp button again to turn it back off.....the starters can get a little impatient while you do this. With the switch it just stays full off regardless of the burnoutbox

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Explain, teach me why they are not the same. Also why does my car feel not so peppy as it should?

 

 

Ted

ESP kicks in when the car loses traction, I think the computer uses the brakes to limit power to the wheel(s) that are spinning.

Explain, teach me why they are not the same. Also why does my car feel not so peppy as it should?

 

 

Ted

ESP kicks in when the car loses traction, I think the computer uses the brakes to limit power to the wheel(s) that are spinning.

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Explain, teach me why they are not the same. Also why does my car feel not so peppy as it should?

 

 

Ted

Esp is traction control and also a stability control system using wheel speed and yaw sensors.

 

And yes, it uses the brakes to aide with those things, as in, if it detects potential oversteer in a left hander, it will squeeze drivers side brakes to bring rear back in line. ESP will also cut ignition to control certain situations.

 

Torque management is just that, it manages the torque output in lower gears so that the mechanical advantage of those lower gears doesn't damage driveline parts. 400 crank Tourqe running thru 1st/2nd gear has a mechanical advantage that multiplies that number 2-3x's.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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Maybe you're changing gears too early. I dunno but you have to familiarize yourself with where the powerband is. Also the tuning may have something to do with it. I'd also discuss your concerns with your tuner.

And yes tq management has nothing to do with esp.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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