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Speedy

Mike @ Ost Works To Fix Challenger Throttle Lag

157 posts in this topic

After buying the Diablo Trinity and letting it update my car's CAL ID from 05187899AE to 05187899AG so it would marry to the car, I had a pronounced lag in throttle response in 4th gear (some in 5th and 6th as well).  See this thread for throttle lag details.  After lots of research I found this was intentional by Dodge as part of a "drivability" update to the PCM in TSB 18-021-09a.  I confirmed with Dodge Customer Service that the TSB does infact update the PCM to the AG CAL which has the throttle lag bug in it.  They also confirmed this was intentional, which baffles me as to how that can be a drivability "improvement".  I have literally done everything possible to get some attention on this problem but it's just not gonna happen.  I even went through my local dealer who I have a VERY good relationship with and who sponsors ChallengerFest each year.  They couldn't even get Dodge to look in to it and were told "it's normal".  Diablo says they're busy with 2012 and up stuff.

 

AJ worked on it for several months but had to move on to other things.  I talked to him about having someone else look in to it a bit more and he agreed that was fine by him as long as they started with their own base tune for the car.  So no drama or anything like that :)  I'm always up front with everybody on what I wanna do.  AJ even offered to help if we had questions.  AJ's a stand up guy for sure as he could have certainly gone a different direction there.

 

So I contacted Mike at OST as he was a vendor on this forum and I'd seen some good things from him.  I let Mike know the issue, sent him some screen shots of the problem, and links to the various forum posts on all the forums, CT, here, Diablo, Z forums, Youtube, etc of all the different people having the issue.  He actually went and read all the threads and ended up giving me a call to discuss. 

 

After an informative conversation, I PayPal'd him the tuning fee to tune the car.  He made it very clear he could not guarantee he could fix the issue but seemed legitimately interested in figuring it out.  He sent me a base tune, and the car started right up and ran great.  I had one small stall issue, which he fixed on the 2nd revision.  So far no throttle lag.  So we kept going.  By the 4th revision we were starting to turn up the timing to get the tune finalized.  The AFR had already been stabilized and things were going very well.  He'd send a revision, I'd data log and mail the log to him, and I'd usually have a new tune revision in my e-mail by the next day.  I was very impressed with the quality of the tunes and the turn around time it took to get them which was usually less than 24 hours.  Mike was very methodical in his tuning methods changing one thing at a time and sending me notes in the e-mail with exactly what was changed so we knew where we were at.  At one point I installed my DS 1000HP drive shaft and mixed up the front O2 sensors and Mike noticed it in the logs and told me he thought they were swapped lol  sure enough he was right!

 

On the 5th revision I went for a nice long drive to finalize WOT tuning (Mike had me go to a test track, ahem, and run it out shut her down and pull plugs and send him pictures).  Damn, if the throttle lag didn't come back.  We were both very disappointed as I could hear it in his voice when I called him.  Over the next month Mike sent me 15 tunes (20 tunes in all!) to try to solve the problem (one even on Christmas day!), made calls to Diablo, contacts at other places that may have seen this, etc.  Mike was relentless.  In the end, he learned he could soften the throttle input to sort of mask the issue which made it much better, but due to the car being a 6 speed I could feel the change pretty obviously.  In an automatic car this is likely a good fix for the problem until Diablo either lets the AE cal work in the Trinity, or locates the table that cause this issue and adds it to CMR software.  Mike is still persuing both solutions with Diablo.

 

Mike still wanted to have a workable tune for me, so we decided to go back to the AE CAL and he has started writing me a tune on that.  I'm on my second revision and it's really good.  Timing isn't finalized, but cold start, AFR, drivability, etc are all very good.  He always does timing last to keep an eye on things and to make sure the motor is happy.  Mike's tuning method is one that makes the car work with the modifications installed, which made perfect sense to me.  The injectors get rescaled, etc, so the AFR he commands is what the car gets.  Pretty neat stuff and makes adjustments easier once the baseline is determined which we had in 3 revisions.

 

I'm posting this so folks that don't want to drive all over the place know there is someone out there that can tune a reasonably complex build via e-mail as long as you have the ability to get him data logs.  Mike's fast and efficient and very good at what he does.  We're going to continue on and finalize the AE cal tune and I'll post up a final post in this thread letting everyone know how we ended up, but so far I'm very happy. 

 

Mike also has the ability to remote control a lap top in a car that's on a dyno, so if you want to go that route he can do that too.  He works in IT like I do, and is very proficient with technology.

 

He can be reached at:  http://www.ostdyno.com/ if anyone is looking for a good e-mail tuning solution.

 

UPDATE:  Here is a TTDYNO from a 4th gear pull with Mike's 93 Octane Tune.  Needless to say I'm happy!

 

This is strictly from e-mail tuning to boot!

 

ost_street_tune_final_web.jpg

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I think the remote thing is what surprised me so much.  I was honestly expecting to have to to revision after revision to even get the car to drive properly but that just wasn't the case.  Within 2-3 revs the car was running just fine and AFR was getting dialed in very close.  We had just started working on timing when the lag issue came up so that's the only thing we didn't finish and that's mainly only for WOT stuff.  I'm curious to see where we end up on the AE CAL but I'm glad to know it is possible to get this done without having to travel.

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Speedy, when i first started to remote tune with johan, i was blown away with how fast the car was running... and i mean Running great....  i honestly could have ran the car year round on the 1st revision. 

 

Im anxious to get my car on a Dyno and have mike go at it... itd be nice to go to 20 psi and not hit the magical wall 

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Speedy, when i first started to remote tune with johan, i was blown away with how fast the car was running... and i mean Running great....  i honestly could have ran the car year round on the 1st revision. 

 

Im anxious to get my car on a Dyno and have mike go at it... itd be nice to go to 20 psi and not hit the magical wall 

 

Mike seems to have done a few stick cars lately.  Check the stuff I told you the other day with the clamp.  Mine's working and I just sent one to a guy in AL.

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Hell yeah! <3  I've heard the exact same thing from every person I've ever talked to that has used Mike and they weren't just head/cam cars. It was an easy choice to make the switch to him for my new motor.

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Speedy, i think the clamp and wiring is fine, i think its the map sensor it self... ill have to replace it once the cars running. 

 

Good deal.  Keep me posted.

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Interesting thread.

 

So, if I purchase a Trinity right now, will I get this dreaded lag as well in my auto RT?

 

Stevo

 

It's hard to know for sure Stevo.  I can say with some certainty if you go to the 05187899AG calibration you'll get it.  So far I've not heard of anyone that hasn't had the problem with that CAL.  Mike said he did have one customer with that CAL (6 speed car) who did not report the issue, but I just can't get my head around that.  He may have had it off the show room floor and didn't know any different, who knows.  I can say for sure going from AG to AE there is a night and day improvement in drivability.  It just sucks as the Trinity takes less than a minute to load tunes and the Predator takes almost 7 minutes (I timed it last night).

 

Mike even went so far as to try to take settings from an AE calibration he had and paste them in to an AG cal tune and it actually crashed the CMR software.  When he compares the two cals (stock for stock) he said the parameters are SO different between the two that it might as well be a 2006 Charger vs. a 2010 SRT8 Challenger.  They are literally THAT different. Whatever Dodge did in the AG cals was a HUGE change.

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Interesting about the CAL IDs. I just checked my Trinity in the R/T - it is 68054009AC

 

My Trinity shows a 'born date' of October 2011.  However I've owned the Trinity since April of 2009.   Is the 'born date' the last time the CAL ID was updated?

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Glad you're getting it solved, but that's why I've stuck with my Predator even though I have a spare Trinity.  I have 3 different tunes and I change them regularly at the track, but the Predator is a proven unit.  Agree that it sucks balls that this issue is there in the first place, but it is what it is.

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Interesting about the CAL IDs. I just checked my Trinity in the R/T - it is 68054009AC

 

My Trinity shows a 'born date' of October 2011.  However I've owned the Trinity since April of 2009.   Is the 'born date' the last time the CAL ID was updated?

 

The "born date" is the last date the Trinity got any kind of software update I think.

 

Glad you're getting it solved, but that's why I've stuck with my Predator even though I have a spare Trinity.  I have 3 different tunes and I change them regularly at the track, but the Predator is a proven unit.  Agree that it sucks balls that this issue is there in the first place, but it is what it is.

 

You work in IT John.  You know that Predator is a dinosaur.  The simple solution is for Diablo to support more CALs in the Trinity or accept whatever CAL the customer has in the car.  All this updating and changing of CALs is dangerous for more than one reason.  It "can" brick a PCM at worst and update to a CAL that has issues, like mine, at best.

 

I hate CALID changes..  lol

 

^^^ THIS!

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Yeah, and as you can see Chris.. your "experience" can vary.    

 

The "born date" is the last date the Trinity got any kind of software update I think.

 

I am NEVER updating. lol The car runs. The Trinity works. Not changing anything.

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Yeah, and as you can see Chris.. your "experience" can vary.    There doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason to this shit either.  My CAL ID differs from either of Speedy's, but.... my tunes have the more recent 'changes' such as Traction Control which was the update to the old "Dyno Mode".  And I also have the Throttle Boost or whatever it's called 

 

 

I am NEVER updating. lol The car runs. The Trinity works. Not changing anything.

 

Well, someone that knows the intricacies of these CALs would have to come in and explain all that Jim.  I doubt there are that many CALs though.  Each one has to be EPA approved and that's expensive.  There is likely just one or two for 6 speeds and automatics, but those no doubtedly change year over year.  Mine's a 2009, yours a 2010.  AJ actually sent me a spare computer at one point with yet another CAL in it...can't remmber the ID now, but it had the same lag problem and threw CELs as well.  It's whacky stuff if you ask me.

 

In my research on this problem the dealer I work with got me in touch with one of the master techs and the guy knew his stuff.  I asked a few involved questions first to qualify him before getting in to the meat of the problem.  As soon as I started telling him the issue he started nodding and said "yep".  He told me he NEVER recommends a customer update a CAL unless they are have a very specific problem the update solves.  He went on to say 9 times out of 10 the updates are ACTUALLY EPA requirements and Dodge will mask them as drivability improvements or something.  He also told me to forget getting Dodge to solve the problem.  He said he couldn't remember them ever changing a CAL based on customer complaints solely.  If they were already working on an EPA problem, they may add in some customer complaint fixes too, but if the EPA says change it, they jump through hoops to get it done.  He said unless an overwhelming majority of people filed complaints it would never even be a blip on Dodge's radar.  If you Google 05187899AG you'll find a lot of NHTSA and other complaint filings about the lag being dangerous and almost causing folks to get in to accidents (not an exaggeration).  It does create a dangerous scenario when you step on the gas expecting the car to respond and it doesn't.

 

People are now buying OLD Predators that have never been updated and hooking them up to their cars and DOWNGRADING their PCMs to older CALs to get rid of the AG issue.  However that is going to be harder and harder to do the older these tools get.

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Once I get the tune back from SHR, the Trinity will never be updated again...unless an update comes along that will accept any vehicles CALID, like Jay mentioned.

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