Clutch Delay Valve On The 6 Speeds?!?

[Blue Blur 45]

Some of them use these if the line is held by a roll pin.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/rus-640281?seid=srese1

[Roomraider 35]

This was my OEM assembly. Note* #3 is the low pressure feed line (out) from the brake master cylinder reservoir (in) to #1 clutch pedal master cylinder.

#4 is the hi pressure (out) braided line from the clutch pedal master cylinder straight to the (in) of the clutch actuator slave in the bellhousing.

Disregard the next paragraph, I didn't read your post correctly. (I now see you wrote clutch master). it's the internet, what can i say?

Not one part of the clutch system is connected directly to the brake master cylinder itself. It is impossible to actuate both the brakes and clutch with the brake master cylinder. The (clutch) master cylinder & the (brake) master cylinder share the plastic reservoir that's mounted atop the (brake) master cylinder, not the (brake) master cylinder itself.

Replace the block you see far north on the braided line, closest to the clutch master cylinder, just before the firewall with the part that you posted up from Ram/Summit, plumb your new 3-AN line and you're done. You'll need a longer braided line than what Ram sent you or you'll find yourself using couplings for the short lines in the package, best to use 1 line with no connections/obstructions.

[dcantrall100 1]

I have a 2009 srt8. That spot where the arrow is is a rubber the goes thru the fire wall. Is it under all the rubber boot that goes thru the fire wall.

[Roomraider 35]

Follow the tube down further to locate a connection. Keep in mind this tube may have changed from 09-11. I was at the dealership yesterday and there's only 2 available nationwide, so I had nothing to look @.

[Moparmafia83 2]

Could this also be a reason why the 6 speeds arnt as fast as the autos even at stock power levels ?

[Jerseyboy 62]

6 speeds are slower because a human can't shift in 150 milliseconds like an automatic.

[Speedy 286]

6 speeds are slower because a human can't shift in 150 milliseconds like an automatic.

The 6 speed also does some weirdness with the timing curve during shifts, even when flat footing it and closing the throttle even though the pedal is buried in the floor. That happening three times down the track is a hindrance to performance.

[Moparmafia83 2]

The 6 speed also does some weirdness with the timing curve during shifts, even when flat footing it and closing the throttle even though the pedal is buried in the floor. That happening three times down the track is a hindrance to performance.

I've heard this before how come that can't be tuned out !

6 speeds are slower because a human can't shift in 150 milliseconds like an automatic.

Ya I understand the autos have ridiculous shift speeds I just find it funny that the 6 speed camaros arnt having nearly as drastic time difference

[GARRETTECH 5]

Ya I understand the autos have ridiculous shift speeds I just find it funny that the 6 speed camaros arnt having nearly as drastic time difference

Thats because the camaro auto drivers arent very good

[Jerseyboy 62]

I've heard this before how come that can't be tuned out !

Ya I understand the autos have ridiculous shift speeds I just find it funny that the 6 speed camaros arnt having nearly as drastic time difference

No matter what you do, a manual trans is always 0.3 to 0.5 seconds behind an ATX. I don't care who makes it. There is no way to get around the fact that you stop transferring power to the rear wheels while the clutch is in. The auto trans is always applying power to go forward. If you only have the clutch in for 0.1 seconds per shift, that's 0.3 seconds that you are not accelerating. Now try to coordinate moving the shift lever, with pushing in and releasing the clutch and you can see this is easily a best case scenario. Even Speedy has said his buddy who makes the same power as he does with an ATX car is consistently a half second quicker then him. Its just physics.

As for tuning it out, I've heard some tuners have had some success doing this. The throttle is closing because you are on the rev limiter. The biggest thing is to find out where the spark value is coming from then go from there. Is it in an alternate spark table or is it some form of torque management.

J

[Speedy 286]

^^ Yep, LuvMyRT and I hit the track together all the time. He's an auto with similar horse power and is almost always .4 - .5 faster than me. I've managed to close the gap "a tad" from TONS of practice, but it'll never be enough to match an auto. His is a NAG1, the new A8 will be even harder to match since they stay in the power band much better. If the A8 became a viable swap for my car I'd probably do it. In the mean time, I'll just keep plugging away and trying not to miss a shift.

We found two issues with the tuning. One is that the throttle blade closes when the clutch is depressed. We've found no way around that in the tune and I'm not interested in trying to wire up yet another gizmo to prevent it. My rev limit is set to 6800 and I shift about 6200 and it still closes the throttle as soon as the clutch is pressed. The second issue is a timing pull at the same time the clutch is depressed. I'd go from 17 or so degrees before the shift to 5 degrees after, and then the timing would ramp back up after the clutch was released, this all costs ET as JB mentions above. Mike was able to tune out "most" of the timing pull on my car, but I'm still dropping out of boost for 3 shifts down the track. That adds up and is a constant disadvantage to M6 cars. M6 sure is fun on the street though. I'm gonna have probably have both in my life to be truly happy.

[dcantrall100 1]

Just so everyone knows the line in a 2009 srt8 is continious from throw out bearing to the clutch master cylinder. I used this adapter to tie directly into the clutch master cylinder. Hope this helps other people. I know it says Ford and Chevy but it also fits dodge.

http://www.summitrac...parts/ram-78310

[Roomraider 35]

Just so everyone knows the line in a 2009 srt8 is continious from throw out bearing to the clutch master cylinder. I used this adapter to tie directly into the clutch master cylinder. Hope this helps other people. I know it says Ford and Chevy but it also fits dodge.

http://www.summitrac...parts/ram-78310

Good info for pre 2011's

[Moparmafia83 2]

Thats because the camaro auto drivers arent very good

Ahhh that makes total sense !

[Pat McCrotch 6]

No matter what you do, a manual trans is always 0.3 to 0.5 seconds behind an ATX.

False, and it was the exact opposite back in the day. Sticks in NHRA Super Stock always had to give the autos a head start if in same class (hp to weight ratio). It was based upon the then current national record. If it was .2 delta the autos recvd .2 on the tree. We had 4 gears to work with, the autos 3. Sticks pulled wheels and true hole-shots, autos had low tech verters & valve bodies. As autos progressed in technology index racing surfaced & I married !

There is no way to get around the fact that you stop transferring power to the rear wheels while the clutch is in. True.

The auto trans is always applying power to go forward. False. 150 ms as you stated sounds right and an accomplished stick driver can equal that. Best of best can easily approach 100ms.

If you only have the clutch in for 0.1 seconds per shift, that's 0.3 seconds that you are not accelerating. True. But that loss of acceleration time is at the stripe and Speedy is then traveling 200' per second. That 3/10's equates to 60' of lost acceleration space on the big end. At 127 mph in 4th gear and already past peak hp output the acceleration rate is miniscule.

Now try to coordinate moving the shift lever, with pushing in and releasing the clutch and you can see this is easily a best case scenario. There is no coordination on the track. It is an aquired skill/art. Once obtained it's just like an auto unless it's not on that pass . Accomplished pilots do not push a clutch in, it is a stab in and out with simultaneous significant pull or push pressure already on the stick. As soon as disc frees the gear change occurs and disc is back on the wheel.

Even Speedy has said his buddy who makes the same power as he does with an ATX car is consistently a half second quicker then him. False. Speedy said "similar power" and we all know that unless they are on your dyno or Mikes same day we can't assume they are equal or even real close for that matter. In addition we do not know the racing weight with driver of each vehicle.

Its just physics. True and I will share what I learned why the Challenger auto will usually beat a stick of "similar" power.

Let's look at the two cars in question PB slips. Miraculously I found them and they each had 1.54 60' times. Absolutely perfect for this need. Let's also assume Speedy is still ramping up his shifting skill so we will put him at 200 ms per exchange and use the 150 for the Nag. O.K., both cars off nicely and dead even through 60'. Speedy now spends 200ms going to the worthless 2nd gear (only good for 20 mph gain) and another 200 ms going to third before he hits the 330 timer. The auto has gone to second and has a .171 lead at the 330. Remember Speedy has shifted twice (400 ms) to the autos once (150 ms) and Speedy is only .171 off the pace with both vehicles already at 1/2 of terminal velocity. Right there is enough proof to say it either is not the shift time or Speedy is up considerable on power. (I believe it's a little of both, but be patient we have a lot of track left !) O.K., both cars motoring along on their way to the 1/8. Speedy makes his last gear change to 4th and the Auto did to 3rd. But wait, something very very bad just happened here. Speedy not only lost all the trans torque multiplying benefit (physics) but he dropped to 4100 RPM at 1:1 and has lost acceleration rate at worst time when the aero push begins. The auto though is pulling in 3rd hard across the 1/8 stripe and is now .24 seconds ahead at 4 mph faster without a another shift. So all shifting is now done for the manual at the 1/8 and 1 less shift for auto. Speedy is only down .24 despite 3 shifts. 600 ms for Speedy, 300ms for auto and only down .24 ? So again it is not the shifting or Speedy is up on power. Lets head for the 1000' mark now. The auto is lucky to still be pulling 3rd hard in to increasing air while Speedy is coming up in Power but it's gonna be tough to recover that 4 mph delta given up at the 1/8th by enough to make a pass. Sailing through the 1000' Speedy is now down .282 vs the .24 he was at the 1/8 but only because the auto was going 4 mph faster at the 1/8 and had gear left to pull towards the 1000. The finish - Speedy is in the band now and pulling like Budweiser horses with his 3.92's but will run out of track to get him. The auto just went to 4th. Bad, very bad. 150 ms spent going in to a 1:1 with only 3:06's and pushing max air. Basically done accelerating and just looking for the stripe. Race over. Speedy accelerated much faster on the back than the auto as they finished at identical 127 mph. Speedy also raced his ass off and now has a Burrito wrapper on his wiper !

Valleys take is that 2nd gear in the manual came from Dodge marketing not a 1/4 mile performance design guru. The almighty 0-60mph time is a critical advertising benchmark. With a short 2nd they could tout the SRT's 0-60 time vs the R/T's because the R/T didn't have the RPM to get there without a change to 3rd. If the 6spd had a taller 2nd and 3rd Speedy would be crossing the 1/8 in third not only quicker but much faster also when going in to 4th gear at a higher RPM. That would allow those Bud horses to pull all of 4th gear up to redline.

I won and lost plenty at the stripe by a bumper and that is where shift time ms can be the difference between a win vs loss. It plays a very small small role in establishing a PB. Manual owners will indeed see a significant reduction in ET if they choose to learn to speed shift but the learning curve can be steep and expensive.

I would guestimate this vid shows an approx 150ms power shift change starting at 1:30 mark. First part is just speed shift. The lower left shows cradle release & back up and lower right shows the drop and return of accelerometer. Really minimal power off time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gW019K7pxWE.

[Blue Blur 45]

Unless your name is Ronnie, Herb or Dick,automatics will always be faster.

[Pat McCrotch 6]

Unless your name is Ronnie, Herb or Dick,automatics will always be faster.

Again, it's gearing efficiency not driver ability. If launches are dead equal, top speeds are dead equal, CD is dead equal it can be nothing other than gearing.

[Blue Blur 45]

This is what hooks guys on manuals, and real men dont lift !

[Speedy 286]

^^ Yep, looks like my videos going down the track

[GARRETTECH 5]

OK ladies and gentlemen, an update to this thread. Over the weekend I decided to take this on and I will give a small write-up, some pics and results

First, what it took to do this CDV orifice removal. This is really pretty easy even with everything (the transmission) in the car. We have seen the pics of where it is located on the bellhousing (drivers side) SEE FIRST PIC

THE SECOND PIC....these are the tools required. Lots of lights, long thin flat blade screwdriver, telescoping mirror, a barely bent dental pick, small angled needle nose pliers and the mini screwdriver handle (I will explain), and an uncut rtv cap. The circled part in the pic is what I removed.

the process.....I did all of this from below. I dont see a good way to do it from above, just no way to get hands/arms down there. It is actually quite easy from below. First remove the clip that holds the clutch line to the housing by pulling the clip out. You can see it sticking out when your under the car and the clip is similar to PIC 3. You pull it out towards the driver fender (using the long screwdriver to get it started enough to grab it with the pliers). Also, you will see a tie wrapped holder for the clutch line that pushes into the bellhousing. Remove this from the bellhousing so you can move the clutch line enough. I then pulled the line out of the hex shaped housing from PIC 1, and plugged the line with the uncut rtv cap. Then I wiped the brake fluid off my face. Then I got the mirror up there and shined a light so I could see what my target was inside the hex shaped housing. I then used the dental pick to basically fish out the rubber "gasket/o-ring". After that was out I used the pick again to fish out the little piece circled in PIC 2. In both cases I got the dental pick into the center hole and just a little side force/pull and they came right out. I took some measurements and it seemed the rubber gasket piece I removed first, and the clutch tubing had the same I.D., so I used the mini screwdriver handle to push the rubber piece back in. I wasnt sure if this actually acted as a seal, but now that I know what I am doing this would take all of 5 minutes to remove if I want to later. After that, just put things back together and started the 200 pumps to bleed the clutch

So, my impressions.....the pedal feels no different as far as how hard/easy it is to depress. I did notice a couple things though that made me feel like the clutch is definitely engaging/disengaging faster. I took it for a ride, normal driving, and my timing was off for the first few miles/shifts. When starting from a dead stop the clutch definitely grabs and gets fully engaged sooner. Also, while driving along and shifting, the clutch definitely disengages quicker because I would get a little RPM blip from not completely removing my foot from the gas and pushing clutch. So, the timing is definitely different (in a good way). I was only able to do a few power shifts and it definitely works, but I really need a full day at the track to evaluate if there is any improvements

Would I do this again? Absolutely, wish I knew about this 30,000 miles ago.

Is it hard to do? Not at all, it was harder to get the car jacked up and on jack stands. After you have done it once, it is rather easy. There was more of the unknown that took me some time. Its also easy enough that if you didnt like the results, It would be easy to put back to original

Next oil change or next time I get the car jacked up, I may remove the gasket/o-ring just to see if there is any difference. I left it in because I had never done this before and I wasnt sure if that piece really acted as a seal and I didnt want to have leaks.

[toofart 155]

Cool write up. I'll definitely be yanking that shit out when I do my clutch.

[SmallBlockMuscle 7]

I took the plastic and rubber o ring out when I put in my new motor and clutch. No leaks without the o ring. Hard to say what the difference is as its also a new clutch/motor and I've just started driving it.

[GARRETTECH 5]

I took the plastic and rubber o ring out when I put in my new motor and clutch. No leaks without the o ring. Hard to say what the difference is as its also a new clutch/motor and I've just started driving it.

Yea, I didnt really think that was a seal, especially since the fitting that you remove to get at this has its own o-ring around it.....but, I figured since the IDs are the same, in theory it is not making any difference....but like I said above, I will probably go back in next time the car is jacked up and remove it to see if any difference.

Also, sorry but the pics I referenced by number are reversed.....I will have to edit the post